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Why is that move つみ ?
2015-02-13, 01:27 AM
Post: #1
Why is that move つみ ?
[Image: 0a6c7acfe4eef4fe65c1d60ad3f42592_1_orig.jpg]

You need to win with one move. Apparently, this puzzle is solved by the following move: S3c-3b=
But why? I have cleary not understood the rules yet or I am missing a part of the rules. Why can't he put one of his pieces to 2c to prevent check and thus checkmate? Because when I do the move S3c-4b=, he puts a knight on 2c and I lose.
What exactly are the rules for winning and when you can drop a piece and when not. I only read about restrictions for pawns and of course about the promotion and empty square restriction for all pieces when dropping.
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2015-02-13, 01:54 AM
Post: #2
RE: Why is that move つみ ?
When it's moved to 3b, dropping any piece on 23 doesn't prevent the mate, as simply taking it by Rx23+ mates. (the promoted rook is defended by the silver)
Such a piece-drop to block the rook's attack in vain is considered to be a 'useless' move in the mate problem of shogi, and thus not counted as moves.

If the silver is moved to 4b, it does not attack the square 23. In that case, the king's side can simply drop a piece on 23, and you cannot take it with the rook. Therefore it's no mate.
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2015-02-13, 02:10 AM (This post was last modified: 2015-02-13 02:11 AM by GinyuTokusentai.)
Post: #3
RE: Why is that move つみ ?
(2015-02-13 01:54 AM)Hidetchi Wrote:  When it's moved to 3b, dropping any piece on 23 doesn't prevent the mate, as simply taking it by Rx23+ mates. (the promoted rook is defended by the silver)
Such a piece-drop to block the rook's attack in vain is considered to be a 'useless' move in the mate problem of shogi, and thus not counted as moves.

If the silver is moved to 4b, it does not attack the square 23. In that case, the king's side can simply drop a piece on 23, and you cannot take it with the rook. Therefore it's no mate.

I see. You said "the mate problem of shogi". Does this mean in a real hon shogi match, there wouldn't be a check mate yet when S3b is played?
And if no, what if I dropped as blue a piece nevertheless on 2c. Do I make a illegal move by this and lose?
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2015-02-13, 02:30 AM
Post: #4
RE: Why is that move つみ ?
It's not illegal to drop piece on 2c in a real game, the yellow piece side will then take that piece, and it becomes a final checkmate, then blue side will have to resign there. However, of course most of the players resign as soon as S-3b= is played, as it obviously leads to a mate.
In Tsume-shogi (Shogi Mate Problem), it's just a custom that such useless blocking is not considered as a part of solution sequence.
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2015-02-14, 01:29 AM
Post: #5
RE: Why is that move つみ ?
(2015-02-13 02:30 AM)Hidetchi Wrote:  It's not illegal to drop piece on 2c in a real game, the yellow piece side will then take that piece, and it becomes a final checkmate, then blue side will have to resign there. However, of course most of the players resign as soon as S-3b= is played, as it obviously leads to a mate.
In Tsume-shogi (Shogi Mate Problem), it's just a custom that such useless blocking is not considered as a part of solution sequence.

Ok, Thank You! I have just one question left and I didn't want to make a new thread just for this. If you do not promote in the promotion zone, can you still promote later without leaving the zone after any move?
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2015-02-15, 01:51 AM
Post: #6
RE: Why is that move つみ ?
You have an option to promote in later moves.
A piece can promote anytime when:
(1) it enters the zone
(2) it moves inside the zone
(3) it moves from inside the zone to outside
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2015-02-15, 07:41 PM
Post: #7
RE: Why is that move つみ ?
(2015-02-15 01:51 AM)Hidetchi Wrote:  You have an option to promote in later moves.
A piece can promote anytime when:
(1) it enters the zone
(2) it moves inside the zone
(3) it moves from inside the zone to outside

Thank You! I didn't know about (3) yet. Very good to know.

Can you please tell me how to solve this tsumi?

[Image: tsumi2.png]


My guess is L-2c+. But then the Computer does P*2e and I lose. I don't why. After that I could play Bx2e and checkmate. Apparently, not part of the Solution.
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2015-03-05, 12:39 AM (This post was last modified: 2015-03-13 03:01 AM by 19gin.)
Post: #8
RE: Why is that move つみ ?
(2015-02-15 07:41 PM)GinyuTokusentai Wrote:  
(2015-02-15 01:51 AM)Hidetchi Wrote:  You have an option to promote in later moves.
A piece can promote anytime when:
(1) it enters the zone
(2) it moves inside the zone
(3) it moves from inside the zone to outside

Thank You! I didn't know about (3) yet. Very good to know.

Can you please tell me how to solve this tsumi?

[Image: tsumi2.png]


My guess is L-2c+. But then the Computer does P*2e and I lose. I don't why. After that I could play Bx2e and checkmate. Apparently, not part of the Solution.
Bx2e is not checkmate if you start with L-2c+ because you leave 2c undefended when the Bishop captures the Pawn. Then you must move a Bishop or drop the captured Pawn after your promoted Lance leaves the board. But once the King has gotten to 2c, White is on open board and can theoretically avoid mate by never forcing a Rook into Black's hand. However, if you play L-2b+, you do give mate with Bx2e because a Gold is then defending 2c. If you do want to give mate with L-2c, you must first move L-2d. After K-1c, you move L-2c and give mate regardless of whether the Lance promotes or not.
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